Comments on theatre of noise: Python Web Application Frameworks (Part 4: In Whic...

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2009-05-25T12:43:28.499+01:00

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web application development

I would like to here about Karrigell which I took ...

2006-04-04T16:41:00.000+01:00

I would like to here about Karrigell which I took now into consideration. Any observation?

As a designer who actually uses Django's template ...

2006-03-12T16:23:00.000Z

As a designer who actually uses Django's template language nearly every day, I'd say you're overstating the messiness or overwhelmingness of the syntax. Sure, there are a decent number of tags and filters, but just like any other language, you only ever need a fraction of them at once, and when you do need the extra tags, you can look them up easily and you're damn glad they're there.

I think Django's template language has a good balance of a small core set of functional tags that do most of the heavy lifting of templating, and a good set of utilities available for specific needs.

As for "code should not be in HTML", I guess that's a personal preference. I personally have a distaste for template languages that mix in a lot of pseudo-HTML or even the ones that extend it with XML syntax, which has its own downsides. The nice thing about the Django template language is that you can replace it - with another template language, or pure Python if you want - and there's work being done to make that even easier (and document it).

Eugene, I agree on two main points. First, my inte...

2006-03-11T16:58:00.000Z

Eugene, I agree on two main points. First, my interpretation that Django has "no interest in being Pythonic" was in part driven by a statement by Adrian Holovaty regarding the templating side of the app. Second, template languages should be for web designers not programmers.

However, I do not think the Django templating meets this goal. Visually I find the combination of regular HTML tags and "{%" delimiters to be messy. There are far too many tags and filters for my liking. Any designers I have worked with would be completely overwhelmed.

These tags will also not sit well with various design tools that expect well-formed XML. In this regard, my favourite templating system is Kid. But even there I do not like embedding code blocks and the resulting need for crufty escape characters.

Code should not be in HTML. Period.

Django's template language is for (surprise! surpr...

2006-03-10T07:19:00.000Z

Django's template language is for (surprise! surprise!) web designers. Yes, it is easy to implement a presentation logic in it. No, it is not suitable for implementing a business logic in it. That was the intentional separation of concerns. If someone wants to mix them up together, there are "better" solutions: ASP, PHP, and so on.

Another point of Django's templating solution was to make it reasonably secure --- designers cannot break a web site with their mistakes.

Maybe it sounds unnecessary for a 1 man army --- simple pure Python can be good enough for 1 man projects. But if there is a team --- at some point a person realises that in most cases programmers are bad web designers, and web designers are not programmers. Django supports separation of roles, if it is required. I believe this is the point of confusion: "an audience of non-programmers", "no interest in being Pythonic"... :-)

Eugene

I will follow up with links for those who want to ...

2006-03-10T05:05:00.000Z

I will follow up with links for those who want to see more of my context. Some of my impressions come from the freely available code snippets on product sites or blogs. And others from direct statements that I'm buying into. Perhaps a little game of telephone is occurring and, being at the far end of a very distant call, I am misinterpreting.

I am not sure exactly what Pythonic means to all parties. I will simply say that I dislike hidden behaviours, magical name-matching cleverness, overly sugared syntax, any reduce/operator/lambda junk, and other obfuscations. Not that I mean to imply that Django exhibits all of these, just a proper subset.

"Magic removal" says it all to me. Though I suppose the existence of this code branch backs up your statement that you aim to be more Pythonic. I will wait and see.

Adrian,

If you'd followed the link in his ...

2006-03-10T03:38:00.000Z

Adrian,

If you'd followed the link in his post that leads back to the jacobian.org post from Jan 27, 2006, you might see where he got his impression from. Frankly, I'm sure I can't be the only who wishes less "Voodoo Black Magic" in their life ( much less their web framework ), so I have to say I kind of agree with some of his comments.

Perhaps if proponents of Django didn't make statements like "the template language isn't for you" referring to developers. Who is it for ? Boll-weevils who have an idea of how to roll up a ball of dung, and somehow expect to magically resemble a website people will want to visit repeatedly ?

Not to stoke the fire, but making a point, by alienating the audience, has NEVER worked. It certainly isn't going to win new converts.

Hey there,

I'm a lead dev of Django. I'm cu...

2006-03-10T02:21:00.000Z

Hey there,

I'm a lead dev of Django. I'm curious to see where you read that we're "having no interest in being Pythonic, preferring to attract an audience of non-programmers." That's quite an inaccurate statement, as we're *very* interested in being Pythonic.

Please point out where you read that, and I'll clarify whatever document needs to be clarified. Thanks for your entry!

Adrian